YOU came in as an activist but today you are seated as a governor and a democrat. How has it been?
AS far as I’m concerned, I’m still an activist in government. And, I’m still a militant in government. It is a matter of definition. I do not see myself as a governor; I’m still not, in a sense, an establishment man. I consider myself an activist and I think we need more activism if we are going to refocus the country and reconcile the wealth of our nation and the prosperity of our people. The only difference, really, for me, is that I had spent a good part of my adult life doing resolutions, writing communiqué, advocacy, mobilizing people, confronting power before being in a position I am able to do what I believe in rather than recommending to someone.
But unfortunately, the truth of the matter is that there are still a lot of issues I still have to recommend, I still have to agitate, and if you like, I still have to mobilize. So for me, there isn’t much difference because at the heart of our struggle as activists is the whole question of public welfare. Who is getting what, at whose expense? Why are we going right when we could go left? For every public policy, who are the winners, who are the losers? Why should the majority keep losing and fewer and fewer people keep winning? These are the issues and now as a governor, I try to ensure that the majority becomes the winner. To some extent, I have been able to make some statement in Edo State because politics and governance is not value free. It is actually value driven. Just couple of examples: I have not build any road in the so-called GRA where the big people reside. That is a conscious decision I have taken; that I will put public resources in those depressed neighbourhoods where the forgotten majority resides whether in the urban areas or in the rural areas, it is a conscious choice. I’m sure as very senior media executives, you have gone round government houses and this is obviously the most modest government house. I have a choice to build an ultra modern government house “befitting the first family” but I choose to build an ultra modern hospital which is currently under construction, where a majority of the people will have access and not a government house where they will be locked out.
So, if you ask me how far, I will say I have enjoyed the opportunity of doing those things that have always been dear to my heart and I’m only constrained this time by resources. Whereas, where I was before (NLC), you could see the guy doing the wrong thing, you make recommendation to him and he would choose not to listen and there was not much you could do. In a sense therefore, the life of an activist in government is a more pleasurable one than the one on the barricade because at that level, at the NLC, it hurts when you can see what is wrong, you can identify those who are responsible for what is wrong and yet you are not in a position to stop them. All you can do is to appeal, sometimes harass them, but often times, in spite of that, they continue to do those things that affect you negatively to a point that you feel rather helpless.
When you came into office people were waiting to see how you would handle labour issues like strike by teachers and doctors. When all of these played out, did you feel the pain of government when it deals with labour issues?
Not really. Government is a theatre of intrigues. But let me say one thing. After many years of struggle, I said to God to one day put me in a situation where I will be able to make decision and some other persons will protest. It is not fair when some persons protest all their lives and others have the privilege of being protested to. I see life to be: those who were protesters in the morning to certain persons, should in the evening, be leading to have a full view of the reality of life. I think God has done that for me.
So when people protest I’m at home because I understand the logic of protest and I understand that it is one way of showing that while you have the power to make decision, the other guy has the power to organise numbers to put pressure on you to tickle with policy in a way that will favour them and that every position you take cannot really be neutral. There are winners and there are losers. While the winners are jubilating over the same policy, others are protesting against it. So the question is who do you align yourself with? Somebody told me three days ago that while she was flying to Benin, there was a conversation on the plane. This person was meeting me for the first time. Some people said the government had done very well and were full of praises, some said, no, he abandoned the GRA. So some people are celebrating for the very reason others are protesting.
Workers had cause to go on strike over tax. When I insisted that we collect the correct tax, people said ha, how can you ask workers to pay tax? I said why not, the worker must pay tax, and that is why I said that the working people are the most patriotic category because they are the ones who pay the correct tax, others pay as you earn. The working people are in a stronger moral position to insist that government is accountable because they pay the correct tax. As a governor, my own people, the workers, must support me by paying their taxes. Conventionally, it is the right wing people who hate that because they think they have enough that they can build private roads. If your roads are bad they can use their aircrafts to fly and the air is free subject only to weather conditions. They arrange their private medical doctors and even have their private medical clinics; they can fly to any country of their choice with their children because the whole world is their constituency.
We had to re-educate the people that it is in the interest of the poor that taxes are paid. For every one naira you paid, someone else is going to pay one million naira, but the good news is that what will accrue from that process will be put to effective public use. When workers went on strike, they went on strike because they misunderstood what my involvement in politics represented. I believe that the worker must earn his wage; we don’t pay salaries out of pity, we pay salaries because they have been earned. If you don’t work, I’m not going to excuse you because even in the world of labour, workers in their wisdom have had cause to hire and fire their own leaders who they believe did not perform optimally. The worker mustn’t see himself just as a wage taker. He is first and foremost a citizen and what determines his quality of life is not the factor of pay, as important as that is. It is the way the polity and the economy is managed, or, if you like, mismanaged that determines the quality of life. You have only eight hours to spend at work. You have 16 hours to spend outside work so if the world outside the work place is not properly looked after, your wage level will not determine your overall quality. This means the worker must be interested in what the government does with regards to roads, healthcare, water supply, light supply etc. And so when we ask the worker to understand the critical balance between what goes to wages and what goes to healthcare, education, water supply, keeping the environment clean, it is a matter of communication. In a sense, after what happened in the last two years the Edo State workers now have better understanding. It is about having a balanced policy with regard to direct and indirect compensation; direct in terms of wages and indirect in terms of access to health care, good roads, water supply, electricity etc.
You need to throw more light to the previous question. Have you always known this balance you are talking or you only came to that realization as a governor?
Even when I was in the NLC, I was always clear that wages are important but wages alone do not determine the quality of living. I have always understood that but let me say that the logic of organizing remains valid. For every kobo, for every naira that accrues to government, there are competing interests. For instance, some people will give the paucity of funds for inability to pay a minimum wage of N18, 000. Good argument, but someone might also say if you can’t pay it, tell us why would a government be travelling with 10 vehicles in a convoy? Why is it that we can fly some people overseas for malaria treatment? I remain convinced that even the best kind-hearted governor needs to be pressurized to accomplish the social purpose of governance. I’m not surprised when workers go on strike; I’m not hostile to the idea because I recognize the legitimacy of a strike action. But, additionally, I also know when you misuse the weapon, when you are not supposed to do so, because that is also a game I can be said to be a veteran.
I also think that the worker doesn’t see me as his class enemy and even when we disagree it is like a family disagreement. That intense suspicion is not there. I don’t see the worker as having ulterior motive when he is protesting or that somebody is using him to discredit me. When politicians or those in government talk like that, I fill offended. In the NLC, they used to accuse us of being used. It is as if telling us that without being used, I don’t know I deserve a wage increase, job security, healthcare, pension scheme, etc. Even when I do not agree with the method applied, I do not say workers are being used. Sometimes workers could make legitimate mistakes in the terms of strategy they opt for in their quest to get matter resolved. For me, I’m very much at home.
We have seen governors in Nigeria show some dynamism and enthusiasm in the first tenure but in the second tenure they relax. What is the assurance that the dynamism with which you used to mobilize the people and contractors in the first tenure will not fizzle out in the second tenure?
This is a very dangerous question in the sense that it is an argument for one tenure. I used the word dangerous cautiously because if people think that if you have a second tenure you won’t work, then, by the same logic, if you have only one term and it is clear that you can never have second term, you will not work. It means nobody will ever work because you know that whether you work or not you can only have one term. But let me say clearly to you that what I do is out of my conviction that people are entitled to get value for the resources that the state appropriate in the name and authority of the people. After all, when I was in the NLC, I took life-threatening risk not so much because I wanted to remain in office, because there were no benefits, but because I believed in what I was doing. If one is an opportunist then, of course, your question might be an issue but if you act out of conviction it is not an issue because you get satisfaction.
I am aware of governors who didn’t perform but did more than eight years. Let me explain: because they didn’t perform, they did not win an election but rigged themselves back to office. The court found that they rigged the election and nullified the election. They then perfected rigging and were returned to office and ended up doing another four years. When the rigged period was added to their tenure, they did more than eight years. So in terms of the empirical evidence, people have been rewarded for non-performance in this country. There are people who believe that the best way to remain in office is not to perform but to accumulate money and then buy over all the control instruments including the police, INEC and other security agencies and they have their return certificates written even before the election day. For me, what I did in the first term was not because I needed the second term; it is because I believe that it is the right thing to do. I am also conscious of the fact that I am not only accountable to Edo people but to all Nigerians who, like you said, were rightly curious. In fact, I told the American Consular General when he visited Edo State couple of years back, that I don’t make experiment with Edo State fund. If I want to build a road, I will not give it to a contractor not known to have performed elsewhere. In other words, I’m not going to form a new company for that purpose to experiment in town because the world is watching how an activist will perform as a governor. I have belief that the only honour in holding a public office is to be remembered for what you were able to achieve for the vast majority of the people. I had worked conscientiously in places where people didn’t vote for me in 2007. This was why, this time around, people said if you didn’t vote for a man and he worked for you, what would happen if you voted for him?
Are you now the new godfather in Edo state having decimated the previous godfathers?
The contest in Edo was not to replace one godfather with another, it was to liquidate godfatherism. If you look at the billboards in 2007, I said we must say no to godfatherism. So, my problem was not that we had a bad godfather; it was that we didn’t need godfathers because by their very nature, they can only exert negative influence in politics. If I see godfather as something negative, then I cannot plot to liquidate one and replace him with another or replace him with myself, no, that is not it. I think Edo is now free of godfatherism. The people have taken charge and the difference is clear so we’ll never return to godfatherism
After four years you are not coming back as governor and given what you have done I don’t think you will be completely uninterested in who succeeds you. To that extent, won’t you be playing the role of a godfather?
You asked a very interesting question. Should anybody be uninterested about his future? Will that be a positive value or quality to be celebrated; that I’m not interested in my future? Don’t forget that my citizenship of Nigeria and my indigeneship of Edo State will not end with my tenure. Every indigene of this state will always be interested in the future of this state. You don’t have to be a governor to be interested in who becomes a governor because you have vested interest; mainly to be governed by a creative human being who will duly apply public resources for the good of the majority. So I’m not apologetic and it would be stupid if I were not to be interested in the governance of this state, but not anymore interested than the roadside mechanic would be, or any other person.
I think we need to define godfatherism in the context in which we talk about it in Edo State. It is a system in which one, two or three persons can sit down and say ‘you will be the next governor because you will listen to me. I will tell you when to wake up and when to go to sleep. By your nature you cannot ask questions.’ And the same persons will tell another: ‘Look, you will not be because you are likely to contest issues, no, we don’t want troublesome people. We want somebody we will tell, your allocation has arrived don’t touch it until we tell you what to do with it.’
These are the issues. If you ask many people around Edo State government, those who are managing commissions including local government, they will tell you that they have more free hand than ever in the state. No godfather can succeed anymore in Edo state. Even the old godfather before the liquidation had tried to moderate but it was too little, too late. People are no longer going to accept one man saying XYZ will be your candidates for an election and nobody asks questions. No, that is not going to happen again.
And for ACN, no one man will manage ACN as if it is a personal estate. Godfatherism thrives in democracy where fraud is the order of the day. And in a democracy where they talk of ‘one man one vote’, godfather is of no consequence. The typical godfather has the connection to manipulate INEC, manipulate the security agencies, manipulate the presidency and rig people into office and in return, collect rent from those they have imposed on the people. We are breeding the political culture of ‘one man, one vote’ in Edo State and godfatherism can’t survive in that kind of political environment. And all those who have interest in the political future of the state including myself must imbibe the new culture.
Was there anything you planned to achieve in your first term that you could not achieve because of finance?
There is no country that has all the resources to do all the things that it desires. There are several things that one would have liked to do; that is why in business you have what is called prioritization because you can’t do everything. You have to organize your priorities to reflect your needs. If resources are not an issue, I would like to have our hospitals rebuilt, all our schools rebuilt, Ambrose Ali University (AAU) transformed to a first class university, our entire roads paved and tarred. Edo needs a conference centre, a five-star hotel, make massive investment in tourism. There is so much to be done and in spite of our achievements, what needs to be done is still so much.
Can you prioritize those things you want to do?
Investment in infrastructure, roads, schools. In terms of social infrastructure, human capital development is number one; it is the key to the future. Healthcare, water supply, extending electricity to rural areas, sustaining our urban renewal programmes, erosion and flood control, in fact in Edo, people don’t look up to the raining season because of flooding. But this year, other people were crying and Edo people were smiling because of the investment we made in erosion and flood control, but we still have a lot to be done.
Having made good investment in infrastructure, we want to focus on the economy. Can we now move to the rural areas, can we now attract investment in agriculture since many of the rural communities are now accessible? We have provided water and light and so, can we now get people to invest? In all, we have to focus more on agriculture and industrialization. We have to emphasize job creation not just in public sector but even more in the private sector. And with the privatization of the power sector, we are trying to see how we can make Edo a hub because we are centrally located. We have huge gas deposit from which we can fire electricity projects and given our location, we have comparative advantage in several aspects of economic activities.
What specifically have you done to boost the capacity of Edo people? Because even if you bring the industries you talked about, people must work in them. Have you done things that would build the capacity of the people?
One of the areas I think we have made bold statement is education. We have made a lot of investment in education; in fact, we have restored integrity to public schools. In Edo state, we are not talking about basic universal education in terms of primary and junior secondary schools; we have abolished school fees even in senior secondary schools. The first 12 years; three years in junior and three years in senior secondary schools, is now free. Not just free, but also qualitative because of the quality of our classrooms and instruction which we are doing everything to sustain. We are also making massive development in tertiary institutions because human capital is the most important of the other factors. If you get everything right and get that one wrong, you can’t move forward.
Even to maintain the roads in the future, you need a competent human capital to do so. If you are going to compete in this knowledge driven world, you must make the right investment in education. But we still have challenges at the level of tertiary institutions. We haven’t gotten it right yet at Ambrose Ali University. We need to make more investment there. We need to revisit the issue of funding of the university. This is also true of Ekiadolor and two other tertiary institutions, which are going to receive focus.
When you look at your investment in education can you say it was justified by the performance of beneficiaries?
I think it is too early to talk about the outcome because we are talking about what we have done in the last two years. In the first year, we couldn’t do much because the PDP dominated House of Assembly frustrated our effort by not making the necessary budgetary provisions. We are talking about two years. Even so, we are beginning to notice large number of pupils returning from private schools to public schools in the state. Enrolment has almost doubled and it will quadruple over the next four years if we are able to sustain the investment in public schools.
You have been suspending school principals and teachers. Is that part of your attempt to make the education system work?
We are not just suspending school teachers, we have promoted some, demoted some; and, last week, symbolically, we promoted three teachers, demoted two and asked for the dismissal of another because I believe that leadership is about your capacity to have a correct mix between the stick and the carrot. You must have the will to discipline those who are incompetent and reward those who have demonstrated competence just to make a point that wages must be earned. You can’t stay in your home and get salary as at when due, it is not going to happen. That is why we call ourselves wage earners not wage awardees. Even in the world of labour, workers remove their presidents and secretaries who fail to perform. It is all about performance, if you have a contract you must do it. I had to service my contract to be re-elected.
You and amnesty International disagreed on execution of death row inmates
It is not me it is Nigerian law.
But you signed the execution of the inmate
Yes, the law said I should sign. Why? Because it is the law.
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